tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6471085912829994652.post396760747539605324..comments2020-01-26T17:26:21.688-08:00Comments on David Crosbie's ex Word of Mouth: Hastening demise of I?David Crosbiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6471085912829994652.post-35442249258485641962011-07-13T13:22:06.980-07:002011-07-13T13:22:06.980-07:00Congratulations and welcome, Jean!Congratulations and welcome, Jean!David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6471085912829994652.post-22537702789158765082011-07-13T04:38:35.828-07:002011-07-13T04:38:35.828-07:00Looks as if I've managed to get back in after ...Looks as if I've managed to get back in after all.<br /><br />The effirt has so exhausted me that I'll have to have a rest before I post anything.jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10020173027151815048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6471085912829994652.post-82153123248698415412011-07-11T04:41:05.898-07:002011-07-11T04:41:05.898-07:00Continued from the message marked as 04:28 (actual...Continued from the message marked as 04:28 (actually 12:28 here in the UK)<br /><br />In both French and English there are<br /><br />1. what we might call a WEAK pronouns used as subjects:<br />French: <i>je, tu, il, ils</i><br />English: <i>I, he, she, we, they</i><br /><br />2. what we might call STRONG pronouns used as after prepositions<br />French: <i>moi, toi, lui, eux</i><br />English: <i>me, him, her, us, them</i><br /><br />3. what we might call STRONGER STILL pronouns used for emphasis in both languages and as reflexive pronouns in English<br />French: <i>moi même</i> etc<br />English: <i>myself</i> etc<br /> <br />[other pronouns are used<br />— either as subjects or objects<br />French: <i>nous, vous</i><br />English: <i>you</i><br />— either as subjects or after prepositions<br />French: <i>elle, elles</i>]<br /><br />English also uses the STRONG pronouns <i>me, him, her, us, them</i> as objects. But French has a second set of WEAK pronouns <i>me, te, le, la, les</i>.<br /><br />The terms STRONG, WEAK and STRONGER STILL are my own invention. I find them useful in trying to explain what's happening in English.<br /><br />— <i>Me and Jim can go</i><br />STRONG pronoun for <b>first</b> word of subject<br />— <i>Jim and I can go</i><br />WEAK pronoun for <b>last</b> word of subject<br />— <i>for me and you</i><br />STRONG form for <b>first</b> word of phrase after preposition<br />— <i>for you and I</i><br />WEAK form for <b>last</b> word of phrase after preposition<br /><br />The sentence <i>Me and Jim can go</i> and the phrase <i>for you and I</i> are both non-standard, but both very common. I believe that in my lifetime the former has always been common, while the latter has become more common in recent years — but I may be wrong.<br /><br />I also believe that <i>for you or I</i> is not yet common — still less <i>for you or for I</i>. But my guess is that phrases like this will be increasingly common in future years.<br /><br />QUOTE <i>But "You and me can go to the shop now" is at least as common as "You and I can go to the shop now". </i>UNQUOTE<br /><br />I don't think I hear <i>You and me can go to the shops now</i> at all often. Not as often as <i>Me and you can go</i> and certainly not as often as <i>You and I can go</i>.David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6471085912829994652.post-23176838170575900592011-07-11T04:28:22.295-07:002011-07-11T04:28:22.295-07:00I argued several times on the old WoM Board that I...I argued several times on the old WoM Board that <i>I</i> is not now a <b>nominative</b> form — if, indeed, it ever was.<br /><br />In languages with proper nominative case forms, they're used for words referring to the same entity as the subject. In Russian, for example, the sentence Это был я — eto byl ya consists of<br /><br />1. это (eto) — a pronoun meaning 'this' or 'that'<br />2. был (by) — a verb meaning 'was' (after a singular subject)<br />3. я (ya) — nominative first person singular pronoun<br /><br />The subject of the sentence is [1]. What the subject <i><b>refers to</b></i> is the speaker of the sentence. And [3] also refers to the speaker of the sentence, but without being the subject of the sentence. The grammar books that I respect call it the <b>complement</b> of the sentence (more narrowly the <b>subject complement</b>).<br /><br />Consider another Russian sentence: Я был там — ya byl tam, meaning 'I was there'. The sentence consists of:<br /><br />1a. я (ya) — same as [3] above<br />2а. был (byl) — same as [2] above<br />3a. там (tam) — an adverb meaning 'there'<br /><br />In this second sentence [1a] is clearly the subject. So we can say, in Russian <b>nominative</b> forms such as я (ya) are used both for the subject and for the (subject) complement.<br /><br />Contrast this with French.<br /><br />C'était moi 'It's me', consisting of<br /><br />1. <i>ce</i> — a pronoun meaning 'this' or 'that' or 'it'<br />2. <i>était</i> — meaning 'was' (with a third person singular subject)<br />3. <i>moi</i> —a first person singular pronoun <br /><br />J'étais là 'I was there', consisting of:<br /><br />1a. <i>je</i> — a different first person pronoun<br />2a. <i>étais</i> — meaning 'was' (with a first person singular subject)<br />3a. <i>là</i> — an adverb meaning 'there'<br /><br />In French <i>je</i> is used <b>only</b> as a subject pronoun <b>not</b> as a subject complement.<br /><br />English <b>sometimes</b> uses <i>I</i> as a subject complement, but very few of us say <i>It was I</i> except in <b>very</b> careful self-conscious speech.<br /><br />I have to make a break here...David Crosbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01858358459416955921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6471085912829994652.post-14487180213573787912011-07-10T20:52:08.256-07:002011-07-10T20:52:08.256-07:00It seems to me, David, that for some reason these ...It seems to me, David, that for some reason these forms have got themselves round the wrong way. People now use 'me' as the nominative with another person. Never I think on its own - only babies say "Me go too." (That's not absolutely true - I would be quite capable of saying 'Me come too' but that is with my baby talk on, which is quite often. Real adults don't use 'me' on its own at the start of a sentence.)<br /><br />But "You and me can go to the shop now" is at least as common as "You and I can go to the shop now". And "You and I" as the object seems very frequent. But for all that you mention the phrase "not for you and not for I", I don't think it is at all usual for I to be used on its own. I don't think he would have said, "Judging the possibility of criminal acts is not for I." Although he split the I and you, it still needed the you to be there for him to use that construction. <br /><br />Cheers, Caro.Carohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01607332291631558734noreply@blogger.com